ANN COULTER'S HEALTH CARE PLAN

@Artfuldodger: 

Ah, yes, she certainly is both here.  Great find!

@themelinda: 

Good post with good history and analysis, with which I agree... until the last paragraph.  Please explain what is "absurd" or "Pied Piper" or "fascist" about calling for Fedzilla to get out of the business of micromanaging the market?  Is that not REQUIRED in order to have a free market?  Where in this article does Coulter "assume the validity of past fascist actions on the part of government"?

"Coulter is just another political operative grown rich by selling this sort of absurd Pied Piper argument which assumes the validity of past fascist action on the part of government.  It leads only into the swamp of NeoCon cupidity. "

You misconstrue.  To whatever extend I was not clear, excuse me.  I am entirely free market, real free market, not faux Chicago School. The Only Policy is No Policy - and remember we need a judicial system which is dispassionate and blind to the economic and social differences between litigants.  Relocalizing with emphasis on persuasion and consensus is the best form for governance.  Notice that, where adopted, rescinding traffic signs has resulted in a 50% drop in accidents. 

@themelinda: 

"I am entirely free market, real free market, not faux Chicago School. The Only Policy is No Policy - and remember we need a judicial system which is dispassionate and blind to the economic and social differences between litigants.  Relocalizing with emphasis on persuasion and consensus is the best form for governance."

Yes, fine, me too.  Ann Coulter too.  What did I misconstrue?  You have provided exactly nothing from her article that merited the reaming you gave.  Rather, you have espoused as proper and necessary moves just like she proposed.

@underfire: Yes yes yes.  and Amen.

@old man in florida: votr only independant ,or leave the box empty.repubs and dems both suck! along with their enablers in the media.

@old man in florida: Hang tough "old man in Fl." You have a much better day ahead of you. Keep the faith!

@Flyguy: You think the Dums are stupid, Fly? How did they get control of the House and Executive? Don't underestimate those evil bastards; the last thing they are is stupid. They are devious!

@underfire: You must of missed this: "

In the first sentence, Congress will amend the McCarran-Ferguson Act to allow interstate competition in health insurance.

We can't have a free market in health insurance until Congress eliminates the antitrust exemption protecting health insurance companies from competition. If Democrats really wanted to punish insurance companies, which they manifestly do not, they'd make insurers compete."

@Artfuldodger: 

Yeah I read that, but since when doesn't big insurance cos. operate nationwide? 

Corporate America trumpets open, competitive  markets, but the reality is; squash or buy out the competition, buy off DC for favors and bailouts, and pay big bucks to the executives whose sole purpose in life is gathering money.

@underfire: 

You can't really be that ill-informed, can you?  Car insurance companies operate nationwide (mainly), but just about every type of insurance is highly regulated by the Fed as well as by each State, and most companies are barred by Fedzilla from selling insurance across State lines.  Most States have only a handful (<10) of insurance companies authorized to sell health insurance out of the 1300 operating health insurance companies in the nation.

@TLaCour: I know what you write is true and it is very sad to hear. And they call it a free market? I think Mussolini would love that type of control and he would call it fascism.

@Harry Hands: 

I don't know anyone who calls current reality a "free market."  I hear lots of lip-service to the concept, like Obambam saying "I'm a believer in free markets" but who calls what we have now a free market?  Maybe those who seek to make it even less free and more State-controlled than it already is?

@TLaCour: 

Good morning.  I did a quick check of Blue Cross, my provider and one of the main players in health insurance, they operate in every or nearly every state.  But my point is the same, big business doesn't want competition, the side business shows to the public, like embracing free markets, isn't what they really want, which is as close to a monopoly as possible.

@underfire: 

Good point about Blue Cross, they are one of the Chosen Few (i.e. blessed by Fedzilla, check out their corporate structure and back-stopping by Gubmint - think Fannie Mae) who operate in every State.  But they cannot sell the same insurance policy in every State, and the favorable cost and provisions someone can get in rural Texas cannot, by law, be offered in rural Massachussets.

As for your point about big business not wanting competition, I agree wholeheartedly.  If Fedzilla would stop granting them near-monopoly status and protection from bad business practices and decisions, and allow full free competition across State lines, I expect things would improve remarkably.

@themelinda: Yes, Coulter is very devious and sneaky; she is obviously a sneaky Devilrat in disquise!

@underfire: Yea, I thought she was shilling for somebody. I'm glad you recognized who it was: Big Business and Big Military! That's it. Certainly!

@themelinda: 

"The Ron Paul R3volution changed the focus for her and other agents.  Now they are trying to staple on a leadership or inject faux issues and leaders.  Their goal is stopping effective change."

Could you elaborate on that point?  Dig a little deeper and explain

@Flyguy: 

That's our job, not his.

@TLaCour: Exactly! J's doing his part! What else could anyone ask but a free site to go vent!!?? My God these Yankees are spoiled, picky brats. I wouldn't try to please the first one! 

I just wish they would stay north of the Mason Dixon!

@Artfuldodger: 

I just wish they would stay north of the Mason Dixon!

Before they can do that, you'll have to explain to them what it is, Arty. Most don't have the first clue.

@ReverseEngineer: 

Oh Eggy, there you are. How was business at the gas station today? Lots of pumping? Wash those hands well before you light up my friend; I wouldn't want you going up in smoke with gas on your fingertips and a cig stuck between your lips. After all, those old Ted Kazynski-style cabins are fire traps.

I have a great idea for you, dearest Eggy. Write a book titled "My Torrid Life in the Blogosphere with Trolls Nipping at My Heels." I can see the headlines: Reverend Egg Writes Best Selling Story of His Traumatic Life Preaching to the Dimwits and Fighting Off the Trolls on the Net.

All of us, your blogging pals that is, will promote it for you. And with the money you make you can rent yourself a larger cabin. Then you could invite some of us Trolls to visit with you. Wouldn't that be great??!!

Yours, the Old Dimwit Troll

@ReverseEngineer: Wound a little tight aren't you RE. Those are harsh words against someone making a post that has some ideas in it that could help us.

@Harry Hands: 

Artless Dimwit brings it on himself.  Long as he keeps dropping Unabombs and repeating lies in the Goebbels style, he's not making a friend of me.  He asks for the Napalm contest with the trash he puts in his posts.  I trash him back harder.  Its the Chicago Way.

RE

@ReverseEngineer: what did Ann say that was disinformation?  You compare her to Goebbels.  Ok, your opinion, which I am sure is thoroughly backstopped.  Got some facts to destroy her statements?  Look forward to your reply. 

@SSS: 

My reply is that I am not trolling this thread to argue about Ann Coulter, I'm just here to Napalm the Living Shit out of the Dimwit :-)  He drops in on my threads all the time spewing vomit about the Unabomber and Alaska Gas Stations, so I am just returning the favor.  Maybe after a month or two of keeping his nose clean and proving he isn't suffering from bovine spongiform encephalopathy writing some decent arguments that DON'T involve lying or invoking the name of Ted Kozinski, I'll engage the scum sucking bottom feeder of the internet in a real debate.  In the meantime, I will feel free to fire Napalm at Will.  Clear enough?

RE

@ReverseEngineer: Reverend, I never knew you were so mean, and had no idea you were so sensitive. Besides, I never meant at all to hurt your feelings, which I evidently have done. What is this about Alaska Gas Stations? What the hell? Now that I'm not guilty of, and I've not told the first lie, that I know of. But you know Rev. how that at my age your mind wanders. Does it not?

Hey, and you better not slander me again—insinuating that I have a day job. What a lie!! Don't do that again, Egg, or there will be serious trouble!

How can I ever get back in your good graces? Or have I ever been in that state with you? Or has anyone??

@Artfuldodger: 

Lets count them up here:

Lie 1:  RE was in Prison at one time.

Nope.  RE never was in prison. RE in fact has a blank rap sheet with a total of around 4 traffic tickets in 30 years, and he paid the fines on all of them even though 3 of them were bogus revenue production traps.

Lie 2: RE takes Meds to counteract Depression

Nope.  RE doesn't even take Aspirin

Lie 3: RE is in the care of Psychiatrists

Nope.  RE told Psychiatrists who insisted on testing his IQ on a weekly basis to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut when he was 12, after 9 years of the nonsense.

Lie 4: RE is a Unabomber Wannabee.

Nope.  RE has never advocated for bombing ANYTHING.  RE in fact advocates for J6P to RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY FAST from the shitstorm headed his way.

Lie 5:  RE works nights in a Gas Station in Alaska.

Nope.  RE stops for Gas to fill his 1989 Mazda MPV and his 1983 Tioga Bugout Machine (which stores an ungodly amount of Gas and costs a FORTUNE to fill and burns it fast if you drive it anywhere), but working in Gas Stations is one form of employment I have NEVER had in my entire LIFE.

Now for some TRUTHS.  RE can be one incredibly MEAN SOB with his writing if somebody pisses him off by being a pathological LIAR.  Dimwit, you simply will NEVER get a decent response from me as long as you pursue this method of disinformation.  Argue to topic or else flip on my Napam Switch. Keep it CLEAN and I will respond as I do with Slowsmile and even Stuck these days who no longer will go down the Napalm road with me.  As long as you write LIES though, I will make it my business to be VERY MEAN to you indeed, and I know how to do it.  I have been in the business of internet debate for more than a decade now, I have been in more Napalm Contests than I can COUNT.  You want to devolve arguments like this, then feel free to continue with your Unabomber fixation.  I will come right back atchya with the most gloriously MEAN Napalm I can muster up off my keyboard.  Your choice my friend.  Show yourself to be able to write clean for a month or two, and I will give you another chance at decent debate with me.  If you cannot do that, trust me, I will Napalm the Living Shit out of you every chance I get.  That is just how it IS here on the Internet.  Don't bring a Knife to a Gunfight with me.  I'll fire the bullets faster, I'll get Meaner than a Junk Yard Dog.  I don't WANT to do that, but I surely will if you persist in lying.  Give it up.

RE

@ReverendEgg: The Devil you say! Why, I never!!

@Artfuldodger: This is some funny stuff. You two are a riot. You ought to have a show.

@Artfuldodger: That is really really too much. LOL

@Whip, it sure beats the hell out of $200 billion in new taxes and 17,000 new IRS agents sicced on the American people. And we need to start somewhere.

People around here are far too absolutist. Heck, we'll be fortunate to stop the Devilrats much less implement something like AC is advocating.

@Whippet: 

Well-said, Whippet.  I know she supports tort reform, I was a bit surprised she didn't have a line or two about it.  Maybe she couldn't find a pithy and sarcastic enough angle?  mmm, NOT, lol.

@Whippet: 

Isn't this like saying a women is beautiful, except for the cauliflower ears, broken nose,  ringworm hair, not to mention the four divorces and drug addiction? 

Real reform Has to include what she, and everyone else beholden to big party safety, has omitted.  Siren song, sounds good and plays well.  Come'on don't buy it.  America's on assault from everyone that can smell blood.

@Under: What is it that's missing?

@Artfuldodger: 

The big one is litigation reform.  We're spinning our wheels without that.

I qoute

"According to the Harvard School of Public Health, 40% of medical malpractice suits filed in the U.S. are “without merit.” These predatory suits amount to legalized extortion and require doctors to purchase malpractice insurance at great expense. A Department of Health and Human Services study found that unlimited excessive damages add between $70 billion and $126 billion annually to health-care costs.

Doctors are so worried about frivolous lawsuits that they order unnecessary — and expensive — tests and procedures. The Massachusetts Medical Society found that 83% of its doctors practice this sort of defensive medicine. The costs of litigation and defensive medicine are passed on to the patient in the price of health care."

@underfire: It's a fallacy to read this omission as a lack of support for the principle.  She is limited by copy editors as to how much can be said in one piece- but she has crucified trial lawyers often enough in the past to know that she's on our side here.

@themelinda: 

If mutual insurance (co-op) is so much better, why isn't it prevalent?  Because either A) for-profit companies are superior and won in the previously-free market, or B) the market was NOT free, and government tilted the playing field to advantage corporate insurance.

IF the government gets out of the way, we will find out whether A is false.  If co-ops provide superior product for lower cost, they will dominate the market in short order.

Ad getting government out of the business of meddling in the market is exactly what Coulter proposes.  You've an awful bug up somewhere dark to argue against Coulter's identification of the benefit of getting the government off our backs just because it is Coulter who proposes it here.

@themelinda: 

The difference between us is that I read and understood them.  You have read Coulter and understood nothing.  Quote from the article where she advocates a government-managed market, or admit that she calls for a free market.

@TLaCour: Yea, I don't think this Melinda comprehends very well, or she's a distorter of truth.

@Harry Hands:  yes, I'm beginning to conclude the same.

@Artfuldodger: 

themelinda isn't even Libertarian.  Libertarians believe first and foremost in Liberty.  Near as I can tell, all she wants is government mandates that empower non-profits over for-profits.

@Artfuldodger: 

Actually, she claims in another thread to be not only Libertarian, but one of those in the governing circle of the Party.

Who needs enemies when there are such "friends"?

@Artfuldodger: What is "Dismantlism?"

@themelinda: 

So who is stopping mutuals from functioning?  Either the government, or nobody.  Coulter argues the government should stop tilting the field to favor corporations.  Why are you in favor of government intervention?

@Anonymous: I recently noticed how they are acting in Europe, rioting in the streets, tearing up cities, wanting more of the dole.

@Harry Hands: 

actually DP aka David aka David2 aka DHB aka michelle... is not anonymous.

@TLaCour: 

How long have you been a Communist?  Joe McCarthy reincarnated.

Tsk, tsk TLC, same old Red Baiting all the time.  You really are a one trick pony with this.

When did you stop Beating your Wife?

RE

@Revernd Egg: Lonesome, Eggy? Get off late from the filling station?

Out trolling around trying to stir up a little action? Why accuse a good man like TL of beating his wife to get action?

I'm your Huckleberry!

@ReverseEngineer: 

Read for comprehension, Mr. Self-Proclaimed Napalm King and Lecturer to Others about Reading For Comprehension.

themelinda wrote to me "How long have you been a socialist?" based on NOTHING in any post of mine that ever existed, much less anything on this thread.

So, answered in kind.

@Artfuldodger: 

Action at the filling station was great tonight. Aunt Bea showed up and told me "Well I NEVER!" when she saw the gas prices.  Then she declared "The Devil you say!" when her credit card was declined.

RE

@TLaCour:

theMelinda is a newby here but certainly posts in the spirit of accusing people of stuff they never wrote.  Seems to be epidemic on the board. It certainly would be an improvement when people stop tagging labels that don't apply to the philosophy of others here, but I suppose that will never happen.  Lets just keep pitching "Commie", "Socialist", "Fascist" and "Coporatist" and "Capitalist" at each other!

In the effort to clean up board debate, I am proposing here a BAN on labelling, and will endeavor myself to uphold said ban by abstaining from labelling any ideas presented with these titles.  Can we try to argue the ideas on their MERITS and not LABEL them all the time and bring in that baggage?  It just confuses the debate and spins it into a napalm contest.  It devolves the board debate.

Maybe this is too much to ask, I don't know.  I do know it is getting tiresome reading the same stupid arguments recycled over and over  again with the same labels attached all the time.  JMHO.

RE

@ReverseEngineer: 

In the post immediately prior to this, you labeled me a Joe McCarthy and a one-trick pony without bothering to read why I wrote what I did.

Using labels as shorthand for flaming people is your specialty.  Who is all the time writing FSofA (Fascist States of America)?  Who is all the time accusing me of Red-baiting FALSELY?  You've got a lot of damned gall.  When I see you stop doing it on a consistent basis, I will consider your proposal... after I pick myself up from the floor.

@TLaCour: 

OK, I will drop FSofA even though that one is not directed at a individual, I can see how it spins up the rhetoric.  In return, I expect you will drop defining current policies being taken in Health Care as Socialist of Corporatist.  Deal?

RE

@ReverseEngineer: 

You have set the example for labelling, and accusing people of writing what they did not write (like you have done and still do when you claim I called you a Marxist), and now you complain there is too much of it?

You want less of that?  Set the example, and stick to it while others do not.  Then I'll believe you really mean it.  Set the example you want others to follow.  That's what I do, and will always do.  You will do what you will do.  And you will be known by it.

@Reverend Egg: Now Eggy, let me tell you that's a beautiful thing you just wrote. In fact, I'd have to say it shows a deep love for me and my heritage and a thoughtfulness for me that I always knew you had. You are a sweet little thing, now let me tell you. It's greatly appreciated, too. Did you think about me today, Eggy? Kiss, kiss! Hug, hug!

Labeling not? How can one converse without labeling? Hell, you're not going soft on us are you Rev.? I honestly could not take it if you did!!

I have a couple of things to "recuss" with you, but we're going to have to do it later. Must run. All love. Stay warm! Be nice to TL; he's a better man than the both of us!

And don't forget to wash that gasoline off your hands before lighting up! I worry about you, Egg!

@Artfuldodger: 

Snatch the Pebble from my hand, Grasshopper.

RE

@TLaCour: 

Deal!  You don't have the ability to stop labelling, I do.  I'll watch every one of your posts for "communist" or "socialist" labelling.  You won't see an FSofA from me after this post.  I won't even use the word "capitalist" again before you use the word "socialist". Let's see who flinches first!

RE

@TheStockpiler: That's my view and the only way to fix the health system.

@slowsmile: 

No one here has argued that there ARE free markets, only that we WANT them.  So what are you writing about?

@DavyC: 

We would all love free markets for sure, but this will never happen until special interest cartels are banished from influencing the US government. It's not just the US govt that manipulates the markets, its the special interest conduits into the govt that direct this market interference via entities like the US Treasury and the FED. Goldman Sachs an JP Morgan are prime examples here. You could say that this is gross govt interference by the special interest cartels, that itself directly influences the govt to grossly interfere in the markets on their behalf. And since everyone appears to accept or is simply resigned to this special interest govt influence -- this then becomes the accepted face of the democratic process -- and so perhaps it's much safer to assume that there will not be free markets anytime soon. The mistake is to think that you can change this outside influence, since special interests actually controls it and not the ordinary citizen.

@slowsmile: 

You've got it backward, slowsmile.  All the lobbying in the world wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if the government's power to screw with the market was absent.  Money doesn't influence or lobby organizations that lack the power to rape and pillage. 

Take away the government's authority to "regulate the market" or any given business, take away their authority to tax from Peter to pay Paul.  One possible wording of such an amendment:  Congress shall make no law regulating any business.

@slowsmile: 

You hit the nail on the head here SS, a "Free Market" has never existed since the most important commodity of all was monopolized.  That being the MONEY.  You cannot have a free market when control of the money and its supply is centralized. Its impossible. A "free market" is a complete MYTH, it has never existed in any economy that had a monetary sytem attached to it.  Free markets occur in Barter economies where a bunch of folks show up int he town square and trade with each other, but that hasn't been the case for a LONG time now, at least the last 500 years.  First Gold as money was centralized, then when it no longer functioned well enough fiat was created and centralized.  Whoever controls the money controls the trade, long as you use money as the intermediary for all trades.

There can NEVER be a free market under the conditions of central control of the money supply. It has yet to be proven or undertaken however to create an economy without a central control of some type, be it Monarchy or Despostism or Republic. All forms of Goobermint have always controlled the money supply, because they must to enforce taxation regimes. Without Goobermint, it has not been proven that you can have money at all.  Without Goobermint, its all Barter. You cannot define money without taxation and without Goobermint. Gooberminst collapse when a monetary system fails, or conversly monetary systems fail when Da Goobermint fails, which comes first the Chicken or the Egg here?

We see here the initial stages of a monetary system falure, and concommitant with that is the failure of Goobermints EVERYWHERE.This was written about in Revelation

 11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

 14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

 15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

 16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

 22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

 23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

RE

@ReverseEngineer: 

I think you have explained it better than I have. Very interesting and relevant what you say about the fact that real market manipulations never really blossomed until after fiat currencies came into existence. Says alot about fiat currencies and the ability of the banker elite to thoroughly manipulate the markets at will. And they're still doing it so successfully.

The only antidote against the bankster's influence would seem to be gold. Adopting gold as the exchange medium would put the fear of God into the banksters, simply because nobody can control gold to the extent that fiat currencies are controlled by the central banks. Only supply and demand can ever influence the value of gold.

@slowsmile: 

Hard to imagine how Gold can decentralize the wealth, since the Gold is already centralized. That supply is controlled by few folks also.

RE

@ReverseEngineer: 

True RE, there would be more interference and imbalance(as now) with fiat currencies and the way I see it, you have to start somewhere. I'm not saying gold is perfect, but I am saying it would certainly screw the bankers influence over the money supply. In this respect particularly, gold is more perfect than fiat as a medium of exchange and as a store of value.

@LucasJackson: 

Wrong 'Em Boyo

Stagger Lee met Billy and they got down to gambling
Stagger Lee throwed seven
Billy said that he throwed eight
So Billy said, hey Stagger! I`m gonna make my big attack
I`m gonna have to leave my knife in your back.

Start all over again!

Why do you try to cheat?
And trample people under your feet
Don`t you know it is wrong?
To cheat a trying man

Don`t you know it is wrong?
To cheat a trying man
Oh you better stop, it is the wrong `em boyo

You lie, steal, cheat and deceit
It's such a small, small game
Don`t you know it is wrong?
To cheat a trying man

Don`t you know it is wrong?
To cheat a trying man
You better stop, it is the wrong `em boyo

Billy Boy has been shot
And Stagger Lee`s come out on top
Don`t you know it is wrong
To cheat a trying man
Don`t you know it is wrong

To cheat Stagger man
You'd better stop, it is the Wrong `em Boyo

You must start all over again, all over again
Don`t you know it is wrong

Play it, Billy, play, you got to play it, Billy, play
And you will find it is the Right `em Boyo

But

if you must lie and deceit
And trample people under your feet
Don`t you know it is wrong
To cheat a trying man
Don`t you know it is wrong
To cheat a trying man
You better stop, it is the Wrong `em Boyo

@TLaCour: 

You honestly believe that insurance companies profit motives will ultimately BENEFIT the consumer? Their goals are diametrically opposed. Consumers need health care which costs dollars and equates to less profit for the insurance company.  How, in an unregulated system, is this not the fox guarding the henhouse.

Disclaimer: My family and I are extremely healthy and health conscious. I worked for an HMO long ago and was repelled by their slimy manipulations.  I do not believe in a large government, but am tired of unregulated industries screwing people and then being bailed out, leaving responsible folk like me on the hook.

@LucasJackson: 

I honestly believe that direct payment for services, by the patient to the doctor, would benefit the consumer AND the doctor, both with respect to costs and with respect to health, physical as well as mental/spiritual.

"Insurance," used as it is in the area of healthcare, is a complete misnomer.  It is not insurance, it is a discount plan.  Car insurance is still insurance, but if were morphed into the kind of creature that so-called Health Insurance has become since it was first Fedzilla'd in the '60s, then it would cover your oil changes and fill-ups (maybe with a small co-pay).

Mandated liability insurance did NOT decrease my cost to insure against the possibility of me causing an accident; on the contrary, my rates rose significantly once my State (TX) made carrying such insurance mandatory.  The same has proven true in Massachusetts with their mandated "health insurance."  Additionally, their taxes rose significantly to defray the government spending in that area, yet even with the increased taxes the program is running an awful and growing deficit.

I consider any insurance, in any area, that is other than coverage for catastrophe to be a waste of my money.  I don't and never will buy it voluntarily.  I have saved many thousands in premiums, just paying for doctor's visits when I do have to go.

HMO's were a creation of Fedzilla, a pet of Teddy Kennedy in the early 1970s.  They are slimy, as are all government-protected corporate trusts.  Increased amounts of corporatism in the form of Obamacare will NOT decrease our costs or increase our liberty. 

Please do not paint me with that broad brush as I am completely and totally opposed to Obama's HealthCare Package, as well as Obama's package in general.  My point is that often times puerile conservatives often cry for free market conditions when they haven't the slightest notion of how the economy even functions besides a knee jerk Keynesian ideology.  They do not want free market, they want free lunch and free reign to make money by hook or by crook, and then cry for bailouts!  Imagine if AIG were your healthcare insurer.  Our bureacratic delays resulted in your death, but we managed to come in above EPS expectations. High Fives and 6 figure bonuses all around.  We parlayed our money into risky derivative investments and lost it all and need a bailout.  More high fives and 6 figure bonuses.  When you give an alky some liquor he will get drunk.  These folks are drunk with money and power and need "The Treatment"

@LuJackco: "cry for bailouts"

Comment: Give us some examples of Republicans crying for bailouts, please, Mr. LuJackco.

@LucasJackson: 

"Please do not paint me with that broad brush"???

No one painted you with anything, not even a crayon.  What are you on about there?  Quote from any of my posts that did so, LJ, or admit you are crying without being hit.

On the contrary, the only person painting with a broad brush here is you, beginning with your initial post and in all since.  Painting Coulter with smear and insult but not a word about what was actually written by her, like your methodological predecessor themelinda did in her rantings a few days ago.  Painting all insurance companies with the Greed brush.  Now painting "puerile conservatives" with a very broad brush dripping with your certainty of their economic ignorance and greed for handouts.

Typical liberal methodology, paint other people with the actions and motives you yourself demonstrate.  NOW you can cry, because you've just been slapped. 

Apparantly you slept through that part of class??? The Bush/Paulson Bailout, Trillions of Dollars, AIG, Goldman Sachs.....any of this shit ringing a bell there??? Helloooooo.

Just for shits and grins, how many Democrats do you think there are in the upper echelons of the "Bailees".  I have been a life long republican, met Reagan in 1980, but you are crazy if you don't think greed and corruption have ruined our economy and our political party.  You are correct however in that this is not about republican/democrat just greed.

@TLaCour: 

sorry there brother, didn't know you had a little thing for Lizard Lips. I'm not offended in the least if you disagree with me, that is cool.  I am however, crying for the smoking ruin that has been left of our country.  Do you feel good about the direction our country is headed?

@Artfuldodger: 

To be accurate, he said "conservatives" crying for handouts, not "Republicans."  Not the same thing, are they?  I can name you LOTS of Republicans crying for handouts:  Snowe.  Grahamnesty.  Collins.  DeWine.  Schwarzenegger.

@TLaCour: 

I will admit my Coulter post was offensive, I just really don't like that woman. Plus I heard she is really Al Gore's transvestite alter ego. 

@LucasJackson: 

"how many Democrats do you think there are in the upper echelons of the "Bailees".

Paulson, Blankenfein, Pandit, Lewis... the majority of the architects and distributors and recipients of TARP etc. are Democrats.  The bill was written by Democrats, remember?  That doesn't let Statist corporatists like Bush off the hook, nor the many Republican members of the banking and insurance beneficiaries of that Stinking Pile called TARP, but the CEOs and boards of all those recipients fund Democrats 10:1 over Republicans, and vote the same way.  Plenty of upper management, too. 

@LuJackco: You're twisting what you said. You did not say Repubs who gave out bailouts, but who asked for them and you were speaking in the context of the private sector.

AIG (Hank Greenburg) was run by Dumbos; Goldman Sachs (Lloyd Blankfein) also run by the Devilrats donated over $100 million to the Obama Campaign. Paulson has been a life-long Dumborat, and some of the bankers, such as BofA didn't want the money in the first place and definitely did not yell for it.

Are you just mad? Or are you sorely uninformed, Jackamo?

@Artfuldodger: 

Before you get your man panties in a Twist making lame attempts at being clever with my screen name consider this.  Only a complete and total idiot, a human so oblivious as to barely be capable of speech, would applaud either party's performance as of late.  You are mad because I made fun of my least favorite political personality (apparantly Coulter is either your birth mother or sorority sister)  and thus offended your delicate feelings.  Only a full retard would equate my comments regarding allowing corporations to operate free of regulation because the market will control their behaviour, with a Repub/Demon thing.  My point is that companies will operate for short term profit, often counter to the public good.  If you don't understand that, I can be of no service in this "debate".

Perhaps you should change the name of this site to "RagingOldGuysWhoMutuallyAgreeandBlindlyFollow".

If we were having this discussion in person I would kick your ass so hard CANDY would fall out. Metaphorically speaking of course.

@LucaJackoff: You are changing the subject again because you're trapped. I challenged you to show me some Repubs in the private sector who asked for bailouts, per your wild, senseless claim.

You could not do so, and thus changed the subject as leftists always do when you trap them and make them show proof of their nutty statements.

And so, we must conclude that you should be at the Huffington Post where you can make wild claims and no one will challenge them.

But here at RD, which you've made a lame attempt to ridicule, you can't get by with such leftist skulduggery.

Obambo will save you; don't worry. Now, go check out the Huffington Post where your friends make similar wild claims as you do.

FratLogRoller,

I would love to make a gentleman's bet with you.  Unfortunately you do not qualify.  Get your nose out of Hannity's ass and you might learn something.  You don't see the TARP scam for what it was/is. My entire point is that markets in certain sectors require SOME regulation.  If you disagree, say so and prove that you were at some point a brain donor.  Don't be the Slim Hipped Purse Carrying Nancy Boy you appear to be.  Now go listen to Rush Limbaugh and cuddle your inflatable Palin doll.  Hang in there Sunshine, soon enough you'll get your chance. 

@Artfuldodger:  You really want a republican who begged for a bailout.  I will accept your apology, as I am the bigger man....

Richard Wagoner CEO of GM begged congress for a bailout.  Check his disclosure of contributions made to the RNC.  You are wrong.  Also, for your gratification and memory refreshment       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsDmPEeurfA&feature=fvw

@LucaJackoff: The Dumborats at the Huffington Post wait patiently for your wild assertions, because you'll fit there like dung in a Dung Beetle's mouth.

Just think LucaJackoff, you’ll find Kathy Griffin, Sean Penn, Rachel Maddow, Susan Sarrandon, Hugh Hefner, and by all graces the Dixie Chicks—plus many of your other pals here at the Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entertainment/

Enjoy! 

This is what the GM PAC gave under Wagoner General Motors Corporation Political Action Committee (GM PAC)  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $61116 ⋅ 138 filings ('94→'08) John Dingell  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $8500 ⋅ 10 filings ('96→'08) Carl Levin  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $3800 ⋅ 3 filings ('96→'07) George W Bush  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $3000 ⋅ 2 filings ('99→'03) Joseph Knollenberg  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $3000 ⋅ 3 filings ('05→'08) Debbie Stabenow  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $2000 ⋅ 2 filings ('04→'05) First State PAC  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $2000 ⋅ 1 filing ('04) Spencer Abraham  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $2000 ⋅ 2 filings ('99→'00) Bob Carr  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 2 filings ('94) Leslie Ann Touma  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 2 filings ('97→'98) Friends of Newt Gingrich PAC  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 1 filing ('99) Thomas Richard Carper  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 1 filing ('00) Michael Dewine  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 1 filing ('06) Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 1 filing ('08) Byron Leslie Dorgan  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 1 filing ('02) Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $1000 ⋅ 1 filing ('02) John Ashcroft  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $500 ⋅ 1 filing ('00) Sander Martin Levin  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $250 ⋅ 1 filing ('94) Dale Edward Kildee  Campaign Contribution ⋅ $250 ⋅ 1 filing ('93)

Looks to me that GM played both sides of the fence, while Wagoner gave only to your Dumborat Party, because the only thing I can find he gave by himself is this:

G Richard Wagoner, Pres. And CEO General Motors

Donation of $2,300 to Friends Of Dem. Senator Carl Levin

Birmingham, MIneighbors.php?type=loc&addr=&zip=48009neighbors.php?type=city&city=Birmingham

Is that a chihuahua in your picture or are you just glad to see me?

So let me make sure I have your position correctly:  A Republican president signed the bailout, Republicans unequivocally and undeniably received and benefitted from the TARP program. The largest receipient in the auto industry supported the election of GW who signed the bill into law.  Also, BTW many Austrian proponents lay blame at the feet of loose and expansive monetary policy by A.Greenspan (a Reagan Appointee).  If you try to tell me Helicopter Ben Bernanke is not a Republican than you win.  Idiocy defeats logic as I have no more time to disprove your fallacious arguments.  Regards,

The Real Lucas Jackson

@Artfuldodger: 

Excellent research, now please explain:

@Artfuldodger: 

A simple acknowledgement that you were less than correct should be sufficient to repair and mollify any social faux pas you may have committed.  Need a hug???

@LucaJackemoff: I think you missed these, Jack. Huffington awaits, now impatiently.

NARDELLI, ROBERT ATLANTA, GA 30327 HOME DEPOT INC	Max Cleland (D) Senate - GA FRIENDS OF MAX CLELAND FOR THE US SENATE INC	Lost	$480 primary	06/19/02
NARDELLI, ROBERT ATLANTA, GA 30327 HOME DEPOT INC	Max Cleland (D) Senate - GA FRIENDS OF MAX CLELAND FOR THE US SENATE INC	Lost	$1,000 general	05/16/02
NARDELLI ROBERT ATLANTA, GA 30327 The Home Depot/PRESIDENT AND CEO	HOME DEPOT INC. POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE, THE	-	$5,000 primary	03/14/02
NARDELLI, ROBERT ATLANTA, GA 30327	Arlen Specter (D) Senate - PA CITIZENS FOR ARLEN SPECTER	Won	$1,000 primary	01/21/02

@Artfuldodger: 

You are straw grasping.  The man IS and WAS at the time of the bailout a REGISTERED REPUBLICAN.

See http://www.nndb.com/people/711/000125336/

ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG!!!!! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!

You challenged me to produce a Republican who cried for a bailout.  I have produced one yet you still cannot concede the point.  I know you were wrong as does everyone who reads this.  I shall consider the matter closed and wish you the best.

@LucasJackson: 

You have toasted you own argument.  Nardelli is not Wagoner, you brought up Wagoner and said, FALSELY, that he was a Republican who went "crying for a bailout."  You compound your poor record with "The largest receipient in the auto industry supported the election of GW who signed the bill into law."  That would be WAGONER, Democrat with his wallet and his vote.  You have not responded to the poster who listed a ream of Democrats who were the main architects and beneficiaries of TARP, but try to divert attention away to a SINGLE Republican, Nardelli, who did not ask for TARP funds.

But it is worse than that for you:  you initially claimed "puerile conservatives ...cry for bailouts!"  Not Republicans, Mr. Lefty Republican, conservatives.  And not Republicans masquerading as conservatives, like Hannity or Limbaugh or Gingrich, eh?  Real ones, like Tancredo.  IF you can find conservative CEOs who cried for a bailout, list them.  Otherwise you remain revealed as a lame liar.

From your first post you have said not word one about what was actually written in Coulter's articles.  You are very free with insult and invective, but unable to marshal a single relevant fact to support your blather.

You have added NOTHING to the debate over what reforms will or will not help accessibility of health care.  Keep your invective to yourself, and make a cogent argument.  

http://www.nndb.com/people/711/000125336/

Delete away, the Truth will set you free!!!!!

@TLaCour: 

You are a Revisionist!!! Are you telling me that Chrysler did not ask for a bailout?  GMAC, of which Chrysler held a large stake DID receive bank holding status and bailout funds. To clearly see my point regarding free market principles, please read this:

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17667

@TLaCour: 

Interesting that you would go back and edit your reply!!!!!!!!!! Get a life

@LucasJackson: 

You are probably the lamest poster I've seen in many days.  You STILL have nothing of substance to say about Coulter's proposals or any others posted in this thread.  Get a brain to go with that mouth.

Some of us think better of what pops out in the heat of the moment.  I initially mistakenly wrote that Nardelli (well Chrysler) did not receive TARP funds, so I fixed it when I saw what I had written.  But it is true that he did not ask for them, he asked for a loan; it was Obambam who decided to use TARP funds and interfere with bankruptcy law instead.  

You prefer that false things remain written in stone, that no one use the Edit button?  What do you imagine that feature is for?  I also removed the "or piss off" at the end of my reply, which I found distasteful after I read the comment back through.  But if it makes you feel better, you can still make a cogent argument, or at least respond to the answers you received on your initial claims and questions, or piss off.  Happy now?

@TLaCour: 

  I would think that you could easily comprehend my thougts regarding free market principles, but I WAS WRONG.  Why is it so hard for A.D. to say that?  On a serious note, please tell me your thoughts regarding a complete free market system with no safety net, no accountability for businesses other than the market forces.  I am legitimately interested to hear your thoughts. 

@TLaCour: 

Did you really delete my post PROVING artful dodger wrong????

@LucasJackson: 

Keep a civil tongue.  I marked your last invective-filled post "Inappropriate," as is my job:  if any more such posts ensue, the matter will go worse.  If you didn't get your fill of posting such things in those comments we have let stand, too bad.

You seem to have missed the "Debate" part of the site name, and just settled for the Raging part.  If you have nothing to add to the Debate, you are not welcome.

To answer your penultimate comment:

Once again, you make no point, no argument, just attempt to provoke an opportunity for tearing down others.  Instead of asking me to state my thoughts on free markets AGAIN, which I am not inclined to do, you could have posted your own and how Coulter's plan does or does not address them.  You can read, so your pretense at not knowing my thoughts shows either your lazy and willful ignorance by choosing not to read them elsewhere in this thread, or your intellectual dishonesty since you already have read them.

"I would think that you could easily comprehend my thougts regarding free market principles"

From what little non-invective you have posted, I have a very clear idea of your thoughts regarding not only free market principles, which you seem to not grasp, but also your lack of thoughts about health care legislation.  So does anyone else who reads your hate-filled and demeaning posts to date, all of which lack any cogent points or arguments.  They can also see that you are clearly uninterested in debate, much less conversation, since you have responded not once to on point questions and comments.

You are wholly uninteresting to me.  Learn to carry on a conversation or debate, or remain so.

@TLaCour: 

I have a different viewpoint.  I believe my intellectual capacity to be sufficient to have my own opinion.  You have censored my comments, denigrated my name and said that since I do not believe as you do that I am deficient.  You claim intellectual honesty?  I am not threatened by alternative views, why are you?  We have wasted enough of this gorgeous day with this unpleasantness.  I will leave your site, as I find censorship to be the truest form of cowardice.  Good luck and God Bless.

Regards,

LucasJackson

@LoveToJackUsOff: Although I'm sure it's wasted energy, see my comment on the main part of this post. 

@underfire: 

3.  Eliminate Fedzilla from any role in Health Care.

Simple enough:  repeal all extant Fedzilla authority, all mandates placed on the States, return all "health" taxes gathered to the States, or the People, and let each community up to the State level decide their own situation.

Helath care costs rose exponentially with increased Federal meddling.  Stop the meddling, stop the spiral.

@TLaCour:

Sounds like the Feds and their puppet masters have a better idea than we do, namely "control everything".

@underfire: 

Well, I might concede "better" if it (the "control everything" idea) worked, but since it fails badly everywhere and everywhen it is applied...

@TLaCour: 

I know the irony is lost on no one, but I have to say it. 

Here we have it, a government that is just about a complete failure at everything it does, and yet it is getting bigger and bigger, assuming greater powers while the private citizen and individualism is in decline.  And the trend is excelerating.

@underfire: 

Truer words, nor more ironic, were ever spoke, I am sad to say.  

@Artfuldodger: 

Apparently he has huffed off.  I was SO tempted when he posted that to say "Don't let the door hit you in the ass," but I am trying to control my Evil Urges.  Not that he didn't earn some Righteous Scorn, but better to forebear lower expressions of it.  Yours is a fine Higher Form, muahaha!

"as several others whom we’ve whacked the peach fuzz off their little curly toes"  Precious!!

Yet somehow I am certain, certain he will be back, most likely as an Anonymous or with a new user name.  Egos with agendas like him do not take well to correction nor being faced down for the vile bully he wishes to be.  He has been Affronted and his... how did he put it... oh yes, he posted that he had been badly used, with that last post of mine having "denigrated my name... and said... I was deficient."  

Oh, the Horror!  Denigration!  Deficiency!

I rather look forward to our future peach fuzz whacking episodes.

@Artfuldodger: 

Take a bow, Arty. You "Artfully" reduced the cretin to cinders. Bravo!

Ah, but alas. Just as sure as God made little green apples, he WILL return. If only to make the case for retroactive abortion. In which case, he can count on my full support in the affirmative.

@Artfuldodger: 

BTW, PukasJackson: Might I suggest that upon your eventual return, you adopt the screen name "Cinderfella" ?

You've been scorched, buddy. And we here at RD simply HATE the smell of burnt shit.