Where's the Gold, Ben ?

@therooster: That's assuming the dollar was still backed in gold, which it isn't. It is now backed solely with promises based on the assumption of taxes collected from U.S. citizens and their descendants. That kind of debt-based scheme could probably work for quite awhile in a population that was rapidly growing and with an economy that wasn't mature, but ours isn't and is. The definition for such a set up is a Ponzi scheme. What are you appear to be advocating in hiding resources for paying off our debts only ads another layer of fraud onto this already fraudulent system. 

No matter how you slice, someone is getting swindled -- and it is wrong. We as Americans, should presume to take the moral high ground, and set the accounts rights -- especially if it turns out we have been the swindlers.

Quite frankly, I'm more inclined to suspect that we're the ones who have been swindled, by the Federal Reserve and its likely European owners. Default has probably been inevitable since the 1970s -- which would explain the huge exponential increase in spending from the point forward. Afterall, what does anyone do before they file bankruptcy? They run up their credit to the maximum, preferably on consumables or items exempt from claim.

If there is missing gold, we're more likely to find it with an audit of the Fed than with an audit of Fort Knox. There is a reason that institution has always insisting on secrecy with regard to its ownership and actions, and is terrified of a full scale, transparent audit.

But here is the big question that no one is asking: What do we do if we find out it is all missing and has in fact been looted? Is that a casus belli? What if the interests aren't foreign, but domestic after all (or both)? Would an audit be worth risking a civil war, instead of a war with Europe? Perhaps that is the real reason the elite don't want an audit.

@debohun:  You're in italics. You may have to read this a few times because it lays out a process going back to 1913.

@therooster: That's assuming the dollar was still backed in gold, which it isn't. It is now backed solely with promises based on the assumption of taxes collected from U.S. citizens and their descendants. That kind of debt-based scheme could probably work for quite awhile in a population that was rapidly growing and with an economy that wasn't mature, but ours isn't and is. The definition for such a set up is a Ponzi scheme. What are you appear to be advocating in hiding resources for paying off our debts only ads another layer of fraud onto this already fraudulent system.

Not at all. That's based on the trade value of the floating dollar price of gold bullion. If the price is driven to a lofty level (likely, IMO) and the USA has a large secret cache, they could buy treasuries back from the market on the cheap.

No matter how you slice, someone is getting swindled -- and it is wrong. We as Americans, should presume to take the moral high ground, and set the accounts rights -- especially if it turns out we have been the swindlers.

Quite right. It does look like a swindle at first glance, doesn't it ?  I couldn't agree more. It probably looks that way after several glances. It did to me. You're right about Americans taking the moral high ground. The baton is yours on the basis of the structure that was left due to the centralizing factor of Bretton Woods. What most don't see is that the completion of the U.S. monetary system's evolution is to be market driven.  Nice ending, huh ? Fitting too. The pure fiat dollar's ultimate purpose is/was not that of a currency, although it was a necessary evil and it's where most get "stuck".  It's ultimate journey is/was to act as a real-time measure for gold bullion weight. The dollar and bullion had to float against each other to accomplish this.

The solution is yours for the taking, but it's not a top-down responsibility of gov't or central banks. It's a grass roots responsibility and all people have to do, those that can, is turn to gold/silver as their circulating currency of preference , whether it be actual bullion or allocated title transfer using gold payment processors such as goldmoney.com. This time really is different. The balancing act of power comes from the bottom-up and does so, only now, because we finally have the tools to do so. The estblishment has done its job in creating the measure (pure fiat currency) while the job of the people is to carrry out the practical marriage of the measure and the weight in real-time context.

All the elite can do now is to carry the stick and make things painful so that the market moves toward gold. That's how the script reads. It's not exclusively scripted with angels and benevolent intentions. We are all following that same script with varying roles.

Quite frankly, I'm more inclined to suspect that we're the ones who have been swindled, by the Federal Reserve and its likely European owners. Default has probably been inevitable since the 1970s -- which would explain the huge exponential increase in spending from the point forward. After all, what does anyone do before they file bankruptcy? They run up their credit to the maximum, preferably on consumables or items exempt from claim.

Your job on the remonetizing of gold is still incomplete. Now that the price is floating, its up to the market to create sufficient demand that its asset value can cover off all debts. The only such demand large enough would be remonetization. In the meantime, you can simply look at gold as being in an "investment leg", although gold is used as money everyday now. There is only a marketing challenge here. That's all. The design is a done deal. You can now buy a stick of Juicy Fruit gum from anyone , anywhere on the planet, and pay the exact gold weighted settlement in real-time, while the gum is priced in any currency of the seller's choosing. Real-time relationships reflect real-time fundamentals. Not only do we have high golder valuations, in dollars, since the $35/oz peg of BW, but we also have the ability to liquidate gold and use it to buy anything with an exact weighted payment. No real-time relationships would have meant no ability to make this kind of payment with gold weight. This translates back to no fiat currency development would have meant no ability to transport gold weight in real-time. The measure and the weight had to have a floating relationship of distiction rather than a fixed one for this possibility. The fiat dollar was part of that process. It is indispensible to real-time pricing/trading. Now gold can be remonetized by the marketplace in real-time. Have you taken your own personal responsibility on this, as an American, or are you waiting for someone else ?

If there is missing gold, we're more likely to find it with an audit of the Fed than with an audit of Fort Knox. There is a reason that institution has always insisting on secrecy with regard to its ownership and actions, and is terrified of a full scale, transparent audit.

A red herring. All Americans need to do is take responsibility at the grassroots level for the recirculating of precious metals or their fully backed derivatives..... those that can. This will reduce systemic debt while allowing for good economic liquidity. You can have both, unlike the opinions of the idiots who reside on the polarized karmic wheel of insanity. All they do is recycle the boom-bust half cycles of a bad system that's incomplete when understood from the perspective of "the invisible hand".

But here is the big question that no one is asking: What do we do if we find out it is all missing and has in fact been looted? Is that a casus belli? What if the interests aren't foreign, but domestic after all (or both)? Would an audit be worth risking a civil war, instead of a war with Europe? Perhaps that is the real reason the elite don't want an audit.

The power is how we use precious metals. Focus on something you actually have some control over.

@therooster: Wow, great analysis and recommendations. I'm still concerned about the swindle as it leaves hundreds of millions of people in the U.S. and elsewhere, more significantly the unborn, holding the bag on debt that isn't truly theirs. Yes, driving up the price of gold, assuming it is available, will help liquidate that debt, but the money to buy that gold in the first place has to come form the pockets of the people who were robbed by the swindle. 

Also, would a side effect of this be to make China and India, two of the largest gold reserve holders in the world (by significant margins) vastly wealthier than the West? What would be the risks entailed there? Of course, prosperity usually results in birth rate decline and a movement toward more stable political systems (as people have more to lose by acting out), so perhaps it would actually be a good thing, especially since their already large populations could dilute that wealth quite quickly.

I'm curious, just how is it that I can walk into the Piggly Wiggly and pay for a stick of Juicy Fruit with gold bullion? And if I can, does whatever process entail a significantly higher transaction cost?

@debohun: 

The debt burden is relieved on the basis of holding gold by weight during the "investment leg" (now) and the road to massive monetization by the market. Velocity will also be enhanced as we create a rounder world. The apex of hierarchy can often act as a monetary bottleneck, like right at this very moment with banks sitting on reserves.

(Psss't.... the FED is paying them short term interest for the first time ever to prevent a deluge)

Buy gold where possible. Move gold to those who need some where possible. Liquidity and velocity can solve a great deal. I can make everyone in this forum wealthy on the basis of moving a single ounce of gold around quickly (as money) where economic activity and trading are the forms of real economy.

Focus on what you have power over .... that's you.

Thanks God China and India have large amounts of wealth for the sake of being able to transfer it.  Would you prefer that we were all broke ?  Based on my lot in life, I prefer that those around me have more. This is because I think in absolute terms on the issue of wealth, rather than on relative terms.

I think you're ready to open an account at goldmoney.com  Explore it. The account is free and the transaction costs (paid by the receiver of the bullion) are less than credit card transaction costs. I'll let that surprise unfold on the basis of your personal participation. Keep in mind that the fee is based on wealth already created too, so unlike interest levied on a fiat "loan" that currency supply has already been created. Think of the trading as a red widget for a blue widget or a gold widget or a silver widget where all widgets are a function of free market barter. Precious metals (as money) are nothing but an asset based barter standard (with store qualities) when you get right down to it ..... and a liquidity medium that people won't eat ...... right RE ?

@therooster: I checked out goldmoney.com. It is an interesting concept. I was struck though by the significantly higher transaction costs than regular banking, as well as the longer term holding costs. I suspect this is mostly because it is a new concept and they don't have a lot of competition, still, they do have to compete with banks. (As well, because they aren't a bank, they aren't making money off of loans to offset storage costs.) For the "buy a stick of gum" example, it appears it would cost a premium of around 30 cents to pay for it using gold instead of with a currency. For storage costs, the prices are about double for gold and many multiples of that for other metals over regular banks. Since commodities are best as long-term investments, these high short-term "checking account" account charges and high long-term "savings-account" charges would seem to be a significant obstacle to gaining a foothold with the general public, or will be at least until we have a period of clearly explicit run-away inflation where gold is obviously outpacing the dollar by such wide margins that it off-sets these costs. Can you offer a different way of looking at this?

therooster. ..Quite so. If this is the case then simply prove it and show me the gold. LOL....

You can't can you ?

Get the point ?

Bye the way, seeing is believing. What reason do you have for trusting your own govt ?

@slowsmile: 

I already stipulated that this is an issue of faith because there is no way to know if the gold exists or not.  Each theory is feasible. I have no position. I really don't care because I'm focused on an area where I actually have personal power in taking action when it comes to global book balancing. It will happen one person at a time.

I don't trust government.  I know the script they follow. I would never place my gold with them on the basis of centralized structure more than anything. I believe that the marketplace has to be factored in. The marketplace works because of "competitive want/need/greed" that supports the "rounding out" of structure and greater distribution of wealth.

The Israelites shot themselves in the foot when they centralized their gold when they created the golden calf. What do you think they had been using as money during their journey thru the desert ?

In case you are not aware, my support of a gold based , competitive, gold money system is market based. It is not government based or banking based. If I want Toyota to have competition, I would not attempt to impliment a new car company with Toyota. It is actually the co-existance of debt-money and gold money that leads to a real-time solution as per market law.

therooster... I believe that much of our thinking is the same with regard to gold. However, where we completely separate is on the issue of "faith, hope and change". Heard it all sooooo many times before -- achieves nothing and always gives advantage to other side or point of view.  And you provide little evidence for your argument. This is the blurry nature of faith in relation to politics and economics.

Really and truthfully, action provides so much more by way of results don't you think ? 

@debohun: 

I think you may want to focus on the big picture of the ongoing costs for & transactions & storage, only.  If you buy gold to deposit, there's a one time fee for the currency exchange provider, sure, but it's one time. The transaction fees are less than what I pay for e-commerce transaction fees for my e-comm website. I pay 3%.

As the model , or an enhanced version, proliferates in the market, these fees only stand to go lower. I fully expect that they will go to the point of being completely flat at some point (with a minimum charge).  The service is the same regardless of the amount being transfered. Only a free market can support this progression, however.

I often wonder if PayPal will ever shift over when the time is right ?  They have the new wineskin. Pouring new wine into it would not be a big task.

I think the storage fees are also very reasonable. 

Translating to fiat so that all the readers get a sense of dollar cost, by today's standard, the annual cost of storing over $10,000 (10 oz) worth of gold is about $42.00 (1.2 gg)  !  That's cheap !

Transaction Payment Fees: GoldMoney's transaction fee is extremely low at only 1% of the payment amount. GoldMoney charges a minimum fee of 0.01 goldgrams/silver ounces/platinum grams and a maximum fee of 0.1 goldgrams/silver ounces/platinum grams.

For example, a goldgram payment valued at $50 costs 50 cents, whereas a goldgram payment valued at $50,000 costs only $3.42.

• The maximum goldgram payment fee is 1/10th of a goldgram (about C$3.66)
• The minimum goldgram payment fee is 1/100th of a goldgram (about C$0.36)

• The maximum silver ounce payment fee is 1/10th of an ounce (about C$1.62)
• The minimum silver ounce payment fee is 1/100th of an ounce (about C$0.16)

• The maximum platinum payment fee is 1/10th of a platinum gram (about C$5.13)
• The minimum platinum payment fee is 1/100th of a platinum gram (about C$0.51)

Pay Gold & Silver on Your iPhone

You can make gold and silver payments from your iPhone while on the go. The application is one of the first electronic finance software programs that has been written for the iPhone, and the first mobile application that allows the direct exchange of bullion between individuals and businesses.

The GoldMoney iPhone exchange application is available for purchase and download through Apple's iTunes app store for US$9.99.

@slowsmile: 

My reference to the issue of faith is simply an issue of what people believe in terms of whether there's gold in Fort Knox.  I never think about it or dwell on it because it's an issue that I don't influence. I suggest you do the same because it's a waste of energy. Empowerment is based on taking action where you can make a difference. Circulating bullion is where we each have that power. You can use the real bullion or fully backed digital title. The issue has been made rather user friendly in the 21st century. The new wineskin has finally been created.

I'm bullish and since you think the Fort Knox gold is not there, you should be even more bullish than I am. Personally, I don't care about the issue of the "missing" bullion. It's cannon fodder to keep people uncomfortable about the gold market , IMO, while central banks and China manipulate the gold price and eat up the supply. Sleight of hand.

Your quite right, it is all sleight of hand. As the US govt sells its paper ETF gold(overleveraged by 1:4 by loans) onto the Gold Market, and China continues to buy up that gold -- and demand payment in gold bullion instead of dollars -- then what effect will this have on the Dollar's value ?

Or perhaps even this too is irrelevant.

Yeah, so who cares about the dollar's value then ?

How convenient.

@slowsmile: 

Those in gold don't care where the dollar goes.  I'm personally insulated. You should be too. We can only take resposibility for ourselves until such time that we "cross over" and start circulating precious metals to help each other in the process of helping ourselves. This is something we can actually do. Lift the tide.

The balancing act that balances the power scales comes from the bottom-up. The evil is simply in the imbalance. We're here to complete capitalism by creating balance in the power equation between supply and demand. The elite have finished their contribution with the development of fiat.  It had to go the way it went in order to arrive at real-time valuations between gold and dollars. The hybrid of real-time gold is a product of real-time capability , based on the development of the floating dollar paradigm. In the gold money paradigm that we are entering, the dollar simply acts as a real-time measure, where gold (the weight) is the actual money. It does not act as the currency in that paradigm, only in its own, where it should remain as is, in competition.

You really need to get your head around the virtues of real-time capability, IMO.  It was responsible for the convenient and user friendly marriage between debt-free store of value (precious metals) and instant global liquidity (fully backed digital PM title, by weight, as the currency). 

therooster...In the first breath you speak and say "Those in gold don't care where the dollar goes".

In your second breath you say "It had to go the way it went in order to arrive at real-time valuations between gold and dollars...."

How is it possible that a totally fiat currency like the Dollar -- which has no tangible or exchangeable value -- have any value against a tangible and valuable resource like Gold.

You continually seem to contradict yourself.

Are you wishing again ?

@slowsmile: 

There are two paradigm s here. One is the one where you still "reside" in, which is the fiat paradigm, while the other paradigm is the real-time gold currency paradigm , which is where I reside. I understand both and the dollar has a function in both.

In the fiat paradigm, the dollar is a free floating currency, the one we are all accustomed to.

In the latter, the real-time gold money paradigm , the dollar is not the currency but it is a valuable tool , mathematically because it acts as the real-time measure for payment is weighted gold bullion. The dollar's "value" (although not as the currency) is indispensable as "the bridge" between currency pricing and gold weighted payment.

Our current habits have us pricing in currency. If you want to make payment in gold, however, based on the real-time value equivalent of the currency price on something you buy , then you have to use an equation that incorporates the USD (and possibly another currency if priced as such). It's unavoidable until the day arrives when gold is priced in a different manner, such as in Yuan or in grains, milligrams, grams or ounces. Now you may see why Bretton Woods was so strategic, based on the structure that came out of it. The structure still remains even though the dollar now floats.

In the real-time gold paradigm, the dollar's math value is not an issue that is "against" gold as it is in the fiat paradigm. In the real-time gold money paradigm, the dollars value is used as a measure "with" gold. There has to be a measure for the bullion weight when something you buy is priced in currency.

Eg: let's say gold is $1160/oz and you buy a widget for $580.  When you formulate the proper equation to make gold payment, it goes right through the USD --->  weighted payment = $580 divided by $1160/oz =  0.5 ounces.

You pay with 0.5 oz of gold or gold backed tile in the case of using a gold payment system like goldmoney.com

Now.... could you have ever calculate that real-time gold weight on the basis of not using gold's dollar price as expressed in USD's ?  The dollar is the key to measuring the right amount of gold to use for payment at present.

Yeah .... I'm wishing , alright. I'm wishing you would wake up !  LOL

The ultimate value of the USD is as a gold measure, not as a currency.  History will bear this out. The dollar had to be developed as a distinct floating currency before the marriage in real-time, however. You need to consider the real-time floating relationship to really "get it".

@therooster: Who are their competitors and why do you recommend this particular business?

@debohun: 

Pecunix, e-gold but I'm not up on any recents.

I'm recommending the model and goldmoney looks to be the front runner right now.

It may be best to look at an exchange provider because they feed them all.

The gold payment processors do NOT sell or buy precious metals.

They only act as the accountant or the user interface for your account on the internet.

The exchange provider, the payment processor and the holder of the bullion are independent and interdependent.

Power is decentralized this way. During the classical gold standard, the banks had too much power and would scam the bank inspectors because of it. Cross references can now be easily made because of revised structure.

http://www.anygoldnow.com/

@slowsmile: 

FYI......I think you meant to write,   Gold plated tungsten.  

@acjitsu: Crikey, if this is true, how did it not cause an international scandal? Never heard of this before.

@debohun: 

As far as I know, it's just rumor. But....At this point, I can't rule out anything.

@acjitsu: It's not a rumour, check Seeking Alpha, the main article was there about the fake tungsten-gold. This has all been hushed up for the sake of the markets and for the sake of the US govt. What the hell, live blind if you want....But there is no such thing as 'The Good Guy' in internatonal politics. Wake up !!

Re: the gold in Ft. Knox

Didn't Reagan say: "Trust, but verify"?

Oh, I forgot.  It's going to cost too much to independently count all those gold bars, and we can't afford it.

@slowsmile: 

Wow, you certainly had a nice little tantrum !  In case you didn't read my one line response, I did clearly state that " I can't rule anything out."  Regardless of any articles posted on Seeking Alpha, I do believe that the Gold is probably faked. You actually provided some very valid points, but nobody REALLY knows the truth. I'm sure in the not too distant future we'll find out, but until then, it's just a RUMOR.

However, let's talk about "waking up" for a moment.  I believe you are the guy who posted the ridiculous article "Deep Oil, Deep Power, Deep Pockets".  Before telling somebody to "wake up" based on a relatively new story and a few facts, maybe you should research Peak Oil a little more to find out what it truly means, before posting utterly stupid articles.  

acjitsu...I am sorry to give the impression of a tantrum but, believe me, my last was pure frustration. This trust that everyone has in the American democratic process really astonishes me. And the continuing belief that after 50 years -- and still no audit of the US Gold Reserves -- that this is "normal behaviour" and people still think that the US govt is playing square with everyone(including US citizens).

Like the article above says -- Would you really trust a Wall Street Bank or any Corporation that had not been audited for 50 years ? If not, then why would you trust the FED or US govt ?

Regarding your belief in Peak Oil, that's up to you really. I gave my reasons in that article. You have given none except for the fact that you don't believe it. Which is fine.

@slowsmile: 

I understand you are frustrated.  How can you not be?  So many lies, so much deception.  You're right, I would not put much credit in the US government or the FED.  It amazes me that other governments (ie: China, India) are telling their people to buy precious metals while our government continues to obfuscate the facts and lie to their own people. Consequently, it is for these very reasons that I believe in Peak Oil. There is just so much evidence for it and not much against it. But, maybe we can get into that another time. Peace to you.  

@acjitsu: 

The US government cannot support gold owner for their people on any open level.  The difference is the reserve currency status that the U.S. has. Nobody wants a sudden and powerful dollar crash.  The alternative is for the government to motivate by carrying the stick, rather than the carrot. They both move people to the same place.

@acjitsu: 

Gold has always been the harshest critic and the greatest thorn in the side if the elite and the influence fiat currencies. They try and smother it, they sell it deserately, but they cannot suppress its undying influence or freedom. Our own belief in the value of Gold is, perhaps, even primordial. It is our only weapon and our last glimmer of hope.

@slowsmile & acjitsu :

Government had to develop the real-time paradigm for real-time gold to solve gold's historical liquidity problem. They had to develop fiat before gold could be a truly useful form of money. The older gold systems had to be moved out of the way at least for a while. Only then could gold be remonetized........ and by the market, not government. The real-time relationship between the measure and the weight had to be established. Real-time is key.

@JasonRines: last decade??????????????? the goddamn thievery will keep flourishing as long as this ignorantized populace allows it. and as i see it, jenny craig, dick extender and hair restorer are the most important things to this white trash country. sorry ,i left out cheapo chicom products. were screwed!

@Anonymous: The populace said no to TARP, Healthcare etc. The people's methodology is to vote out all incumbants when the country reaches this point and the terminology is called Voters Revolution. It took decades to get here, it will take a decade to get our America we knew back. We're screwed may be right in the short term but I am all in long on the American people. If you ever have a registered account I will explain why but I apologize but I cannot dedicate a lot of time to anonymous commentators.

@ReverseEngineer: I am surprised that you see the impact of the gold held at Fort Knox as irrelevant. You seem to forget that the world is watching America's dollar bluff. And let's face it, the dollar through it's debt and credit dependencies is most definitely not one-sided. Let's be all inclusive here, after all. While many astute economists like Krugman resolutely declare and insist that the dollar can never fall, you seem to forget the ongoings of the rest of the world. To assume that the world cannot do without the dollar is a gross mistake. To assume that the volatile dollar will persist is a dangerous mistake indeed. Wish away...

If gold is such an anachronism, then why are China, Russia and the rest of the BRIC "savers" buying gold so furiously? Can you explain this ? Or is this, again, so conveniently irrelevant ?

I would love to know the reason for this...

@slowsmile: 

What makes it irrelevent is that you and I have no power over the issue. What we have power over is getting gold into circulation as money.  Do you suffer from "paralysis by analysis" when you're addressing your gold ball ?

therooster...I have no doubt at all that we are completely irrelevant. Well said.

But you haven't answered my question have you ?

Which is that if the dollar is so important -- Why are China, Russia and the rest of the BRIC "savers" buying gold so furiously now?

It doesn't take rocket science or deep economic theory to see the effect that this will have on The Dollar does it ?

We both know the answer to this but only one of us will admit the true answer.

@slowsmile: 

Which is that if the dollar is so important -- Why are China, Russia and the rest of the BRIC "savers" buying gold so furiously now?

Gold is going up in price because of its store of value properties on the basis of declining fiat currency.

The dollar is important, however, not so much because of its trade value, but for the sake of its floating existance and its role in a new gold money paradigm where the USD acts as a real-time measure for gold weight on the basis of gold weighted payment for items priced in fiat currency. The dollar is a bridge in the calculation to establish gold weighted payment.

At some point in the future, it's quite possible that the world will evolve toward weighted pricing of goods and services, but as long as prices are measured in fiat currency, the USD will have an imporatant function within the gold payment system, not as a currency of payment, but as a real-time measure of bullion. Any eventual transition to weighted pricing of goods and services will be a market endevour. Until that time, the dollar will fill a very important role as a measure. This was the structural importance of Bretton Woods.

@therooster: 

I do not support the use of the US Dollar (or any other fiat currency for that matter) within any international digital gold mechanism for trade. Not at any point in its inception. To allow that is to allow bankers and banking law to prevail and you know what I think about those and that. Big Mistake. All advantage in trade would remain with the US govt and Wall Street Bankers as now. Your version would achieve nothing and would never be allowed to graduate to a fully digital gold trade system. I am very surpised that you can't see these dangers in your solution.

My version would kick off straight away with a fully insulated and agreed digital gold trade system, no currencies or fiat paper involved. No influence from the banks and banking law and no advantage for any favoured governments. 

In my version, and as a second tier of protection, each country who is a member of the new digital gold system can use as much unbacked fiat toilet paper as they like -- but only within their own country's borders -- it is therefore the function of every citizen in these countries to create their own national monetary system(not international). In this way, if citizens of a particular country go fiat and allow the bankers to inflate their own money through their govt, well I couldn't care less -- this is, after all, the nature of democracy -- and it is right and proper that any country that ruins its own currency through avarice and greed should pay its own price -- and not bleed the rest of the world. But if such a scenerio arose, because the world currency is simply digital gold and not dependent on any currency -- no other countries will be affected. 

Simple. Just trading with gold.

@therooster: Indeed.

@slowsmile: 

What exactly am I wishing for ? Your creative imagination has lost me for a moment.

@therooster: I am indeed puzzled here....

You have said in a previous comment:

"Your perception that the US government would actually have to own some gold is a perception worth discussing however,. The answer to that is they don't need any."

...Really? So, if the US govt. were to be part of an International Digital Gold Mechanism (as you have supported in numerous comments), without using US govt. gold as you say, then what would they use for a valuable commodity or currency to back this mechanism? Or is it to be Thin Air again ?

Or, perhaps, are you suggesting then that gold backing and management of this international digital gold system would be at grassroots level?

I may have just defined your wish....

Both these ideas are unworkable and ridiculous.
 

@therooster: 

....Or perhaps I should also just ask some questions :

* Since you clearly support a Digital Gold mechanism for international trade, then, if you say that the Gold in Fort Knox is irrelevant, where will the gold come from for America to  be part of this GOLD mechanism ?

*Do you support the use of currencies, fiat or otherwise, within your version of this international Digital Gold trade mechanism?

@ SlowSmile......

Really? So, if the US govt. were to be part of an International Digital Gold Mechanism (as you have supported in numerous comments), without using US govt. gold as you say, then what would they use for a valuable commodity or currency to back this mechanism? Or is it to be Thin Air again ?

I've never said that, not once. Your perception of the referenced structure (centralized) is your own, not mine. Read what I write rather than sucking me into a centralized paradigm of "necessity" as you might see it. It's not needed.

The need for gold is for the marketplace, not the government. If gov't had some, they could deal with debt much easier. If they don't, they simply don't and we make other provisions. I don't support the formation of a "golden calf" with centralized gold. It's not part of "the Script".  It doesn't need to be. Been there. It's yesterday's news just as Bretton Woods is a chapter in history. Decentralized gold ownership is now key.

The elite's responsibility was in the development of a real-time environment for the sake of the development of real-time market fundamentals. Supply, demand and resulting market trade value can always be ever present for the first time because of digital networks. Digital networks are "the new wineskin" in this instance. That real-time process runs right through the development of free floating fiat currency. Call it a "necessary evil". They're following "the script".  Got it ??? If there was no fiat currency development (floating) , there could be no development of real-time gold backed currency where gold is the currency & store of value and where the mathematical "value" assigned to the gold price (in dollars where dollars are a simple real-time measure) is a valuable tool when you consider that we price things in currency at the moment. We don't price in weight.  I'm speaking from a real-time perspective here. I don't recall you ever making reference to real-time. I don't think you've acknowledged the real-time understanding that currently affords gold to have the luxurious benefit of debt-free store of value married to instant liquidity. That's all we need, debt-free store of value integrated with instant liquidity, globally.

You can't move from a loaf of bread priced at $1.98 (fiat) to a weighted gold payment without using the floating price of gold in currency as a bridge between dollars and gold weight. This is a practical reality. The algorithm always has the USD incorporated as the measuring tool for weight.

Gold payment (in weight) = $1.98 USD divided by the floating dollar gold price.  Note: This is a real-time calculation

In short, open your mind to the notion that all that has taken place is a work in progress and it is incomplete. In the pursuit of balance, there is a top-down component to the whole money system and there is bottom-up component. There is a real-time marriage between the measure and the weight. Dollars are not a currency within this parallel real-time gold paradigm. Dollars are a measure of gold weight. Dollars would still be a competitive currency within the fiat paradigm, however. There's no need to destroy anything, just move forward. Fiat will destroy itself by way of market choices.
-- 

@slowsmile: Gold is completely relevant as a currency anchor and general benchmark economic leveraging amounts of a nation. Perhaps someday, we will measure all currency as energy units as an anchor which I am fine with as long as I can see with my own eyes the power produces assets creating those units. I am please you are following this story Slowsmile. It is one of the most important economic stories that is the least reported.

@JasonRines: Hi Jason, thanks for commenting. I only made this last comment because I noticed that several commenters have questioned the relevance of gold. Perhaps these are the convinced Keynesians or Monetarists, who believe that every economic crisis can be cured with a further slab of debt off the American economy's poor carcass. To me, this doesn't work, never works, and only ever perpetuates predictable business cycles -- in other words, our "debt solutions" never expire and always come back to haunt us. And if I wasn't British, I would surely be an Austrian I'm thinking....LOL.

@slowsmile: 

If gold, who's worth or purchasing power is defined by weight only (don't make the mistake of comparing fiat currencies or the dollar here, whose value is defined by nothing but legalized digits) -- and whose valuation and management is entirely a subject that is outside banking law, were to be fully used to back all currencies 100% without the use of fractional reserve multiples, then there would be little or no inflation, the cost of living would be stable incurring little inflation, so there would be little or no need for continual price rises, wage rises and higher bonuses. Debt Inflation is the intimate and secretive friend of all banks and Keynesians, one and the same. And inflation is what allows banks to make so much money, so quickly and easily...

SlowSmile .... does the above paragraph simply highlight a feature of gold money or are you suggesting that gold should be pegged (fixed) to the dollar as it was during Bretton Woods ?

--> (don't make the mistake of comparing fiat currencies or the dollar here, whose value is defined by nothing but leglfillalized digits)

SlowSmile ... have you found another use for those digits other than as a currency that resides in the fiat  paradigm ? What other use do they fulfill ?

therooster...

"... does the above paragraph simply highlight a feature of gold money or are you suggesting that gold should be pegged (fixed) to the dollar as it was during Bretton Woods ?"

I would prefer a country's national currency to be simply a fully gold backed currency, since this would eradicate the need to have any currency markets at all. After all, in the early 90s, wasn't it George Soros who bet against the pound and brought the English currency to its knees as well as ousted the the Thatcher government from office? This should never have happened, a single investor or individual should never be given the opportunity or even be capable of trashing an elected democratic govt and make money like that at the same time. Hardly democratic. And this would never have happened if the pound had been fully backed by gold.

I would also envisage that there would be a simple and separate method of cross border trade resolution using just digital gold for international trade as I've said before.

So it's a two tier system if you like. Inside a country's borders, a paper currency fully backed by gold. Outside a country's borders, a purely digital system backed by and using gold and/or other resources, and a mechanism ruled by an honest, unbiased and elected international governing body.

With this system, a country can apply its own national banking laws to its own currency paper and gold inside their own borders if they so wish. Which means that they can wreck their own currencies by using fractional reserve banking multiples and inflation if they want. This I think is democratic, since if a country ends up being ruled buy its bankers instead of honest, intelligent politicians, then the self-trashing of one's own currency will be entirely insulated from the global international community who are on a seperate digital gold-only mechanism, and will therefore not effect other countries through the markets or otherwise. This seems very democratic and fair to me, because it then becomes the responsibility of the citizens of that country to elect the right politicians to effect this change, where the outcome -- good or bad -- is purely a function of either the citizen's proper interest and intelligence or sheer stupidity in this matter. This, after all, is democracy at work...and citizens should always be given the free opportunity and right to fully trash their own national currency if they so desire. Heck, both America and Europe have already been doing this for years and years with their currencies haven't they ?

But this would not apply to a separate international trade mechanism using only digital gold as the world trade currency which would be fully backed by only gold/other resources and with no paper currencies involved -- because the principles of a digital gold system would be based on simple warehousing laws by weight and not on bent banking laws. And if you don't have any paper currencies involved, then no banks need be involved either. By now, you should be able to see and understand quite clearly what my prime international currency strategy is here in regarding banks and banking law...it is simply to exclude their dirty and perpetual influence.  Only way really.  

... have you found another use for those digits other than as a currency that resides in the fiat paradigm ? What other use do they fulfill ?

Personally, I couldn't really give one flick for digits on any unbacked paper currency.

I am talking about the fiat dollar here, the implication being that any fiat currency's purchasing power is always on a downward slope due to self-induced inflation by the bankers, whereas gold is a tangible and valued asset whose purchasing power is not based on legalized digits -- but on it's weight -- and its purchasing power remains,  generally, very steady. An ounce of gold is simply an ounce of gold by weight -- hence this is referred to as a tangible asset whereas digits are always representative. Gold is completely independent of the the influence of banks and govts which is why they fear and despise its accumulation so much. Gold is the very antithesis of fiat paper -- its harshest critic and greatest enemy in fact.  So what does any fiat currency's digits represent, when backed only by thin air ? To me, it represents nothing more than blatant deception. And so when you are told that gold is worth over $1000 today -- Hey, that sounds alot doesn't it ? But you have been fooled, because in the 1920s an ounce of gold cost only $23. So what does that tell you about the nature of dollar digits and gold ? The stupid ones think that the value of gold has gone up today (Wow, look it all those dollar digits !!!). But the clever ones will moan loudly that the dollar has been soundly trashed and devalued over the years, and continues to be played with and be trashed by the bankers who are always given free reign to inflate by the govt. In terms of purchasing power, gold simply preserves tradable value and only ever increases in value as a direct physical function of supply and demand.

Remember that actual value and purchasing power sometimes contradict because they are not always the same thing. This really depends on what you use to compare and represent the dollar's value doesn't it? As an example, try determining the value of the dollar against the Euro now. The dollar is looking good now because the Euro value is dropping, or so it seems. But as anyone involved in the currency markets will tell you,  ALL fiat currencies are dropping now. But this is unseen and thoroughly confusing because different currencies are inflating and devaluing at different rates. So the Euro is losing value against the dollar simply because its rate of inflation is higher than the dollar at the moment. But if you bought a loaf of bread with dollars at this time a year ago, and buy a loaf of bread today, you will see that you will have probably had to pay more today due to dollar inflation. Therefore, when you compare the dollar against any other fiat currencies to determine value, its outcome is a deceptive lie and contradicts the realities of the dollar's (or any other fiat currency's) inflated and lowered purchasing power. I'm not talking about investors or investing here, I'm talking about the simple survival economics of the ordinary citizen -- or, more correctly, the  "inflation tax" milkcow -- on the street. This, after all, is how it affects all of us.

So digits on a piece of paper are completely meaningless and deceptive when compared to other fiat digits(as they always are) unless they are backed honestly by a valuable, tangible asset like gold.   

@slowsmile: 

I would prefer a country's national currency to be simply a fully gold backed currency, since this would eradicate the need to have any currency markets at all. After all, in the early 90s, wasn't it George Soros who bet against the pound and brought the English currency to its knees as well as ousted the the Thatcher government from office? This should never have happened, a single investor or individual should never be given the opportunity or even be capable of trashing an elected democratic govt and make money like that at the same time. Hardly democratic. And this would never have happened if the pound had been fully backed by gold.

Why stop the decentralization at the national level ?  Why not bring that sovereign right down to the individual ?

Soros was ahead of the market and the market's capabilities to balance structure. It's a work in progress.  How many more FOREX day traders do we have now ? How many more day traders will we have in 2 years, 5 years, 7 years ?  The world is getting rounder.

I would also envisage that there would be a simple and separate method of cross border trade resolution using just digital gold for international trade as I've said before.

Who runs it ? Again, you're looking to empower nations at the expense of the individual, by way of structure.  Digitization gives us all access. The markets driven by all people will be the catalyst for gold monetization.  I can buy a dart-board with the IMF's logo on it from anywhere in the world with fully backed gold title. The transaction is then closed. There's no lingering debt , no balance of payments. Who's game do you want to play ...... ?

You're looking to Mammon for answers, SlowSmile. Don't be fooled.
Structure and real-time issues have to be factored in.  They are huge keys.

Two tiers is what I'm suggesting too, but anywhere and everywhere for everyone. Omnipresent.

@therooster: 

On reading some of your replies to other peoples comments, I see that some people -- like me -- also have some difficulty understanding what you mean, because at times your arguments are so vague that it becomes quite difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Your diversions into Mammon, Old Wineskins,  religious texts etc. is off-point, unnecessary and only works to blur your argument.
 

"Who runs it ? Again, you're looking to empower nations at the expense of the individual, by way of structure.  Digitization gives us all access. The markets driven by all people will be the catalyst for gold monetization."

With reference to your above quote, and as I said in my very last comment:

"Outside a country's borders, a purely digital system backed by and using gold and/or other resources, and a mechanism ruled by an honest, unbiased and elected international governing body."

Of course, if you prefer, I would certainly not be averse to GoldMoney.com running the whole of the world's Digital Gold Trading System. But I think you will have to ask them first...

"Why stop the decentralization at the national level ?  Why not bring that sovereign right down to the individual ?"

If you read my last comment with a keen eye you would have noticed that I more or less said that people should be made aware of a national gold standard for their own national currency. They should then be allowed to vote on whether they want this nationally. I like this approach because its democratic don't you think? And if they vote to continue their own dumb fiat practices within there own borders then this is OK too, because if you have an entirely separate trading settlement mechanism based on just gold, using only gold and no fiat paper, it becomes irrelevant whether any country, using their own national fiat currency, goes into financial monetary crisis i.e. the Digital Gold Trading Settlement mechanism is completely insulated from any deleterious effects that could occur from any monetary crisis involving any national fiat currency.  

Therefore, in my version of the digital trading system, it really doesn't matter whether nations elect to have a national fiat currency or a currency backed by a gold standard. Because only gold is used on the new trading settlement platform, so there will be no effect from the bad economics of national fiat currencies, and if a nation is using a fully backed gold standard with its paper currency, then that's great. Either way it wont disturb or effect the trading mechanism which would be used for world trade of commodities, goods or anything trading across borders and would be just a method of settlement using gold. Bye the way, I'm not talking about a digital system for just buying gold here. I'm talking about a worldwide digital gold system that is only ever used to settle cross-border trade payments worldwide.

SlowSmile .... I have your comments shaded for easier following.

On reading some of your replies to other peoples comments, I see that some people -- like me -- also have some difficulty understanding what you mean, because at times your arguments are so vague that it becomes quite difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Your diversions into Mammon, Old Wineskins,  religious texts etc. is off-point, unnecessary and only works to blur your argument.

People don't think first,  they feel first and then rationalize what they feel. If you can convery the proper feeling about something that's being represented, the understanding comes quicker. We are dealing with three distinct paradigms here. Shifting and fully realizing which you're in , moment to moment, is important

1) A fixed dollar to gold relationship ($35/oz) during Bretton Woods
2) Floating fiat as we know it since 1971
3) Real-time gold as money that has outstanding liquidity due to real-time capability and the ability to digitize the weight as the unit of account.

You don't yet acknowledge real-time applications for gold. If you did, you'd see why fiat was a "necessary evil" in an incomplete process toward fully gold backed digital currency. Real-time gold would have never been possible without the necessary evil of floating fiat.

In the manifestation of freedom, there must be a shift toward decentralization, personal sovereignty and particpation, rather than representation. You're suggesting representation. The market can do for itself. It doesn't need representation. It simply needs tools of access.

"Outside a country's borders, a purely digital system backed by and using gold and/or other resources, and a mechanism ruled by an honest, unbiased and elected international governing body."

So you have an elected body that's unbiased, huh ?  LMAOROTF  Honest too , huh ?  LOL   Why not let the market make these decisions? You're worshiping the beast. You don't know it.  You're inside the belly, which is why you can't see it.The beast is hierarchical.

Of course, if you prefer, I would certainly not be averse to GoldMoney.com running the whole of the world's Digital Gold Trading System. But I think you will have to ask them first...
 
Ask who ?  Goldmoney ?  It's a competitive service. The idea is to let the market choose. The industry will expand. Market currency deserves a market approach (bottom-up, demand driven) just as fiat deserves a fiat approach (top-down, supply driven)

If you read my last comment with a keen eye you would have noticed that I more or less said that people should be made aware of a national gold standard for their own national currency. They should then be allowed to vote on whether they want this nationally. I like this approach because its democratic don't you think? NO, you've given away the power.And if they vote to continue their own dumb fiat practices within there own borders then this is OK too, because if you have an entirely separate trading mechanism based on just gold, using only gold and no fiat paper, it becomes irrelevant whether any country, using their own national fiat currency, goes into financial monetary crisis i.e. the Digital Gold Trading mechanism is completely insulated from any deleterious effects that could occur from any monetary crisis involving any national fiat currency.  

You're involving government. That's the lynchpin. If you read my posts with "eyes to see", you'll notice that structure is highly regarded. You actually trust and believe in the established powers more than I do. Market currency needs no government involvement.  Gov't can just continue with their fiat game. Ignore them. The implimentation of a new gold money system is here and now. It's bottom-up and market driven. There's nothing to do or change other than simply supporting it.  Why waste time ???

Define national standard in terms of structure and how gold gets stored and transfered and when you do please tell me why you would want a national standard ? In advance, I suspect that your answer requires government involvement and control. There's no need for it.

I'll ask you again as I did in another thread.  Is your gold money concept, whether it be at the national level or otherwise, based on a fixed dollar-gold peg as Bretton Woods was ?

 

@therooster: 

"Is your gold money concept, whether it be at the national level or otherwise, based on a fixed dollar-gold peg as Bretton Woods was ?

I am truly flummoxed as to where you get the notion that I have ever supported a fixed $35/gold peg as per Bretton Woods. Where have I ever mentioned a peg -- pertaining to Bretton Woods or otherwise, applying to my version of the trading system in any of my posts ? 

Time and time again I have said that, at the national level, a country's currency should be fully backed by gold -- whose value is determined directly by the gold markets. By the way, here is the first line of my last post:

"I would prefer a country's national currency to be simply a fully gold backed currency, since this would eradicate the need to have any currency markets at all."

I guess you must have misread or misinterpreted the above. You seem to be making a habit of this.

With regard to your other points:

They should then be allowed to vote on whether they want this nationally. I like this approach because its democratic don't you think? NO, you've given away the power.

So, people and citizens (perhaps best described as grassroots?) of all nations will not even be allowed to vote or decide for themselves what kind of currency they should have as a national currency -- either fiat or gold backed ? Your dark red comment is very interesting indeed and tells me alot about you. I guess you are the only person on Earth that can save the world then. For this one belief alone, I would never support your version of a digital gold trading platform. I confess to an extreme dislike for any government or individual telling me what I should do without any consensus. I do not support dictatorships. Your arrogance here is truly amazing...

And you will never ever be able to implement a new method of international trade settlement -- such as a fully accepted international digital gold settlement platform for trade -- without full involvement from world governments.  To implement this, you would have to change international monetary and trading law. And any belief that this mechanism could be set up just by individuals or from grassroots without international consensus and without changes in international monetary law is a truly hilarious pipedream.

So just to helpfully clarify further:

1. I DO NOT believe in a flat dollar peg, I DO support a real time dollar peg to the gold markets.

2. I DO NOT support a trading platform that is not agreed by consensus through international monetary or trading law or not agreed by the citizens of any country involved.

3. I DO NOT see as at all realistic, a grassroots movement to change the world's monetary trading system.

4. I DO NOT see FOREX traders as ruling the world. Because these traders DO NOT produce anything so this will solve nothing. If we had a purely gold trading system, this would completely shut down the betting and excess manipulations on the FOREX markets. YIPPEE !!

5. I DO NOT believe in free markets making these decisions because the markets haven't been "free" for about 100 years now. Ask the FED. 

Your opinions still remain fuzzy and completely unrealistic, bordering on illogical rant. Hopefully (though I'm not betting on it), you might now better understand my thinking and position on this. 

@slowsmile: 

So just to helpfully clarify further:

1. I DO NOT believe in a flat dollar peg, I DO support a real time dollar peg to the gold markets.

Good, maybe now you can acknowledge that the real-time relationship between gold and currency only came about as a result of the severing of the fixed peg and the development of the pure fiat currency ???  Are you there yet ?

2. I DO NOT support a trading platform that is not agreed by consensus through international monetary or trading law or not agreed by the citizens of any country involved.

They can vote in the market. There's your consensus. The establishment must really love you. Let the market be the consensus. Why shouldn't judgement of an economic application take place within an economic structure ?  Why involve governments ? There's nothing illegal about using gold backed digital currency. Government can do what they want. Leave them to do so and let the market vote with their market actions.

3. I DO NOT see as at all realistic, a grassroots movement to change the world's monetary trading system.

You're too late. It's already begun !  It's not about changing the system. It's about completing it with a balance that's provided by the marketplace. It's a marriage between the measure and the weight. It cannot be done from the top.

You cannot pour new wine into old wineskins.

4. I DO NOT see FOREX traders as ruling the world. Because these traders DO NOT produce anything so this will solve nothing. If we had a purely gold trading system, this would completely shut down the betting and excess manipulations on the FOREX markets. YIPPEE !!

You brought up the issue of Soros. I merely pointed out the structural imbalance based on market participation (or lack of it at that time). More participants in any market creates a "rounder world" and redistributes power. That's all.

5. I DO NOT believe in free markets making these decisions because the markets haven't been "free" for about 100 years now. Ask the FED.

That's quite clear and why I shaded you in pink.

You obviously missed the essence of some of my posts. Power is a structural issue, first.  Applications that you pour into structure may be important, but are secondary to the structure in of itself. Structure is the "prism of power" on how power is distributed. Redistributing power to people is a grassroots movement that must involve participation of the same ...... unless of course, you trust the elite to properly represent you.  

You're an elitist. Did someone send you here ?  Tell them we can do for ourselves and strike a power balance. Let them also know they have nothing to fear.

@therooster: 

I note that your assessment of point 1 is very grudging. What does it matter who thinks what and all the rest of the dross, the important thing is we agree isn't it ?

The whole point of number 2 is to support democracy by consensus -- which means you take other people's opinions into account, you vote on it and the majority rules. You do believe in democracy don't you ?  If you didn't ensure this consensus you would not act according to the wishes of the citizens. If you did not do this by consensus then it would just be by your dictatorship. And I'm not involving government here, this is by consensus of the people. You seem to be having a great deal of trouble grasping this.

In point 3 you waffle on about "....completing it with a balance that's provided by the marketplace. It's a marriage between the measure and the weight. It cannot be done from the top." and then you end with that floral quote about Old Wineskins. AGAIN....LOL. And you've said nothing relevant or original really, have you ?

In your assessment of point 4...Ah yes, there's that "...more participants in any market creates a rounder world" phrase again. Another comment that says absolutely nothing to me really. I won't even ask you to explain it since I've already said quite clearly that the markets are not the free markets anymore -- but heavily manipulated and influenced by the elite. I've already given you the reasons for this and you don't believe it. Since the whole basis of your idea about creating a digital gold trading platform is wholly and so precipitously reliant on the "free markets" principle, driven by grassroots marketeers, I understand this. But unfortunately, you can't see or accept that the markets have already been well polluted by the manipulations of the elite for decades now. But that's OK. So, we get nowhere here too then.

In point 5 you paint me as a pinkie elitist.....Funny that...As a person who obviously does not believe in citizen consensus and doesn't deny it, and you call me a pinkie elitist ?...LOL.

I have tried to understand your posts, I really have, but I'm afraid its been a losing battle because you simply haven't convinced me. Your absolute hatred for anything that looks like a government "structure" or "prism of power" or "Old Wineskins" is indeed worrying. In order to achieve something like a new digital gold trading mechanism, you would need proper organization AND a proper, honest and international-class legal structure. Your failure to see this and your perpetual belief in the ability of the "free" markets to just morph and produce a brand new gold trade settlement platform is completely unrealistic and also quite hilarious. 

Good luck to you !! 

@slowsmile: 

My intention is to catch your attention and the attention of other readers on point #1.  My apologies if you took offence.

Point two does not concern me in the political sense. The order of secular models starts with economics while the political model follows suit. I place my focus on the economic model. That's how the political model gets shaped and we are still in "bad shape" at the moment.  The political model is so much slower to change than the economic model and the dynamics of the economic versus the political.

Changing structure in the economic model is much easier to see, sell and accomplish than any restructuring in the political model. The bottom-up example will be forged in the economic model, just as "here, take a bite of this" also forged a top-down example in the economic model.

Free markets are the backbone of democracy.  Yeah, I grasp it just fine. Don't you worry about me.  I get my info from a place you may have overlooked.

Point 3 is "for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear".  I don't throw pearls to just anyone.  When people look for clarification, they are free to message me 1-1, which they do.

I don't believe markets are currently free, either.  Free markets had to be put on hold for the sake of the development of the real-time measure (fiat) and the centralization of the dollar. That sequence goes right back to the formation of the FED.  Their act is over, however. Now our act kicks in to create balance in structure, something I refer to now and again as a "rounder world". They're helping us too. They have an incentive. I call it "the stick". They're following "the script", the nasty buggers.

I believe in consensus, organically. That plays out better in markets than in politics, however. We have more influence in the economic arena, IMO, than we do in the political, especially when we can use a market currency. Restructuring in economics will lead to restructuring in politics. Ye who holds the gold .... remember ?  I believe in participatory democracy, not representative democracy, but fully appreciate that representative democracy is part of the process where one leads to the other with the huge assistance of free market money.

Never forget the gifts of the magi.

@therooster: 

Your quite right that central bankers are holding on to bullion and buying it now as well -- particularly the central banks of the BRICs and the Middle East countries. And a good point about bankers knowing the value of gold, but they still try and trash it for the sake of their own fiat currencies. There seems to be much contention as to the usefulness of gold by some, but the way its being played out is simply the Keynesian Debtor Nations vs. Saver Nations. But only one of these ever attempts to hold something of tangible value, whereas the other seems content to live on Thin Air as equating to value.  I've always found this to be very peculiar. And Keynesians just love fiat paper as well as paper gold, and like you infer, soon bankers will lose control of the gold rice, and no amount of over-leveraged paper gold(ETFs) will save them.

@slowsmile: 

And a good point about bankers knowing the value of
gold, but they still try and trash it for the sake of their own fiat
currencies.

Those antics will only hold up on the basis of the market's ignorance ....... changing every day.
The key is not just to buy , but to take physical supply off the market.